Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net Neutrality

In reading the many posts on net neutrality, I was delighted to see that a man who's work in the Clinton White House I greatly respected, Mike McCurry, took the time to post on MyDD the other day.  He responded to Matt Stoller's Attack with a response outlining why he opposes regulating net neutrality.

I have sat on the sidelines of the net neutrality arguments here on MyDD so far because it is a very confusing issue that I am still trying to fully understand.  However, I enjoyed reading McCurry's response, because it presents a lot of good arguments that many of us here at MyDD may not have been exposed too since the blog has taken a very strong position in favor of net neutrality.

While McCurry's comments are already out there on record, I feel this issue is well worth writing a diary about, in order to provide a forum in which to debate McCurry's arguments, particularly about why we should oppose government involvement in regulating the internet.  The points he raises are, at the very least, worthy of debating on their merits, rather than just selectively quoting McCurry to imply he is only motivated by money.  It's always nice to consider both sides of an argument especially when loyal Democrats like McCurry and Stoller have opposing viewpoints.

Mike McCurry's response to Matt Stoller LINK

Matt, I guess I should get a few words in on this subject in my own defense.  You are correct that net neutrality is not a partisan issue, therefore Democrats even good Clinton Democrats can disagree because the debate is about what is best for the future of the Internet.

I joined the effort opposing regulated net neutrality because, contrary to what you write, it's absolutely consistent with the Clinton Administration's policies toward the Internet.  The Internet became a true mass-market medium during our eight years.  As the President once said, "When I took office, only high energy physicists had ever heard of what is called the World Wide Web ... Now even my cat has it's own page."

During this time, there were repeated attempts to bring Internet regulation under the federal government's umbrella.  To the Administration's credit, we consistently resisted the temptation - see Ira Magaziner's 1997 report, "A Framework for Global Electronic Commerce."  Also, in 1998, the President signed a moratorium on conflicting state and local Internet taxes that helped promote the explosive growth of online commerce.
These so-called "net neutrality" regulations would completely undercut this legacy.  And for what purpose?  Are networks being degraded?  Is content being discriminated against?  Is there a clear problem that government needs to address?  In fact, the only clear definition of "net neutrality" itself was put forth in the principles laid down last year by the Federal Communications Commission and my Coalition supports those.  Companies have agreed to abide by them.

But once you try and define what is to be regulated, unintended consequences will surely result.  If broadband providers are made liable in court for the way their pipes "carry" digitized information, you're going to have Congress and FCC regulators writing rules that cover the basics of Internet traffic.  Do we really think the Internet will benefit by having government officials write rules on caching, collocation, packet reassembly and the like?  And when these rules are challenged in court (meaning more delays), will that help or hurt efforts to improve America's broadband deployment?

Trying to guess at a regulated formula for network neutrality that would protect the public interest and not impede innovation and investment for the Internet is a high-risk proposition.  I'd rather try and get a 100% perfect NCAA basketball bracket together because your chance of success is about the same.  Can you give your audience a clear idea of how you would define and regulate neutrality on the net? (And if not, why not leave it to the FCC principles that have already been articulated?)

There's another aspect of net neutrality that's even more problematic: the way it mixes two separate entities, namely the public Internet and private networks.  For twenty years, private networks have been helping business, government, universities, and others that need specialized communication.  There's nothing wrong with groups that are willing to pay a little extra because they need a specialized service - think of UPS vs. the postal service.  So if net neutrality regulations are passed, would federal regulators have to write separate rules for public vs. private networks?  Would there be different federal rules for low-bandwidth IP services that use the public Internet and high-bandwidth services that don't?

Entire forests will be sacrificed to produce all the legal and technical filings that would surround these and other neutrality questions.  In my view, we're far better off continuing on the sound path the Clinton Administration established.  Having federal regulators and Congressional staff writing Internet regulations is not the best way to promote online diversity.  Letting the technology continue to evolve unfettered is.  

Network companies are going to spend billions developing the infrastructure necessary to bring us the Internet of the future.  We will get in the way of that robust deployment if we make it harder for those companies to get a return on their investment.  (If you don't trust me, listen to the Wall Street analysts who said exactly that in their congressional testimony recently - the unintended consequences of regulated net neutrality will make investors skeptical about providing the capital needed to make the net capable of what we are soon going to demand of it.)

How will the "little guy" with interesting content or a good idea or the next "new, new thing" succeed if he or she finds a clogged Internet that can't get the job done?  How does that help the constituencies we Democrats need to represent?  How does that enhance free speech on the web?  Look, I have to make a buck sure.  But I am happy to be on my side of debate and not yours.

--Mike McCurry
CoChair, Hands Off the Internet



Display:


A forum (2.20 / 5)

Thought this diary would give us a proper forum in which to debate the points Mike McCurry brought up.  

It appears there are valid Libertarian and Democratic arguments on both sides of the net neutrality debate, and hopefully we can use this diary to debate them.


by BringtheFight on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 09:51:46 AM EST

Re: A forum (none / 0)

Why, exactly, would Matt hide a comment in YOUR diary... especially one so innocuous as this?  Christ...


Invest in nature
by NCDem on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:36:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A forum (none / 0)

Yeah weird.  I was wondering why my comment disappeared.  I'm not sure why it did. And why did someone give me a zero rating? I was just trying to establish a place where we could debate the merits of McCurry's statement, which seemed to have gotten lost in the shuffle of all the posts about net neutrality last week.  I'm of an open mind on this, I can see the arguments on both sides...but I want to do just that, hear both sides.


by BringtheFight on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:04:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mike McCurry Responds Disingenuously (3.00 / 5)

OK. I'm fairly new to this issue, but Mike McCurry's assertions don't seem to add up. He seems to be implying that the Internet just grew the way it did with no government regulation, and he's on the side of keeping it that way ("Hands Off the Internet"). That's not true. The common carriage rules governing phone service were extended to the internet, afaik, and that's what gave the Internet its "neutrality."

He seems to give away the game here:

There's nothing wrong with groups that are willing to pay a little extra because they need a specialized service - think of UPS vs. the postal service.  So if net neutrality regulations are passed, would federal regulators have to write separate rules for public vs. private networks?  Would there be different federal rules for low-bandwidth IP services that use the public Internet and high-bandwidth services that don't?

He's setting up a dichotomy with the "low-bandwidth IP services" and "high-bandwidth services." That's the whole point; the telcos want to control the high-bandwidth services like video, etc, strangling the future of the Internet and any small media entity that wants to deliver high-bandwidth services. He's explicitly equating high-bandwidth Internet with private Intranet networks, and calling it a "specialized service."

So, the question is: is the Internet only low-bandwidth, dial-up service, and everything else can be the private realm of the telcos? That's what he's saying.

The Internet was a wonderful example of the benefits of smart government action setting the playing field in a way that benefited everyone. Mike McCurry is disingenuously parroting right-wing deregulation rhetoric to try to push a radical restructuring of the Internet's future.


by BriVT on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:00:46 AM EST

Correct (3.00 / 1)

Good work.  You're right on all points.

The only thing I'd offer in extension is that new carriage rules should be required for the internet to remain an inter-network system.

After all, if you can preclude various networks from seeing each other, it isn't much of an internet.

To the extent the telecoms feel their money is going to others, I'd offer a raw capitalist answer: if it isn't worth, then get out of the business.

This gigantic imposition of other people's traffic hasn't done a damned thing to discourage Verizon from rolling out a next-generation hi-speed fiber optic system and where possible renting fiber at a loss from existing networks.

The truth is, even at $15/mo, they make a pretty good markup on DSL.

If they were wise, they create a multi-tiered bandwidth structure and impose it on their customers.

But, they're not wise.  They'd rather try to pick the content providers to pieces.

Well, guess what?  Content is everything.

Ask anyone who runs a website.  A great site down't mean anything without tons of user interaction and wortwhile content.

Take that away, and people will stop using the internet.


by jcjcjc on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 03:14:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net N (none / 0)

Oh don't worry, I'm going to bring up McCurry's bad faith.


by Matt Stoller on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:27:41 AM EST

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net N (3.00 / 1)

He keeps hammering away with "do you really want the government deciding the rules" but never addresses the flip side- I don't want the telcos deciding the rules either.  There shouldn't BE rules.  At least not when it comes to the flow of and access to information.  I don't care where the rules come from, they're still inherently bad.


by Lucas O'Connor on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 11:28:15 AM EST

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller (3.00 / 2)

Also, where was Mike McCurry when the reformers were trying to bring the Internet under the Federal Election Commission's umbrella?  I don't seem to recall a peep from him then.


by Adam B on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 12:15:46 PM EST

Puhlease...... (3.00 / 2)

Why are people in the blogosphere always in awe of a post simply because because the author happens to be famous. McCurry's post doesn't present good arguments. How uninformed does one have to be to find any value in that post? What fucking idiot doesn't think content will be restricted? Ask the UCC about getting ads to air on Fox and ABC. Ask the UAW about getting ads on CEO pay to air on Comedy Central and NBC. How many ways does this have to spelled out? Want a quick summary of McCurry's post?

You like Clinton? HOFI like Clinton!
Regulation = Bad

Believe it or not, all regulation isn't bad. Don't let your hatred of Congress (and politicians in general) blind you to the fact that ALL industries are regulated with the INTENT of serving the public good. Do we like the Clean Water Act? Do we like the Clean Air Act? All Mike McCurry seems to be trying to do is to tap into our dislike of Congress and regulation without offering specific examples of how the internet could be harmed.

Here is this gem:

If broadband providers are made liable in court for the way their pipes "carry" digitized information, ...

Strawman alert! Strawman alert!

Do we really think the Internet will benefit by having government officials write rules on caching, collocation, packet reassembly and the like?

Huzzah? Is there legislation up for debate purporting to do this?

I don't have anymore time for this BS. Keep this up on the recommended list so that people can see the juvenile arguments that Mike McCurry is making to prove his point. Mike McCurry WAS a Democrat (not a loyal one). Now he is a loyal LOBBYIST with an agenda. There is nothing wrong with that. Just realize there is a distinction between who he was and who he is now. If he ever has a valid point to make, I'll listen. Chris should have had someone tear this post to shreds instead of letting people that there was something to what Mike McCurry had to say!

p.s: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECTLY FREE MARKET! The barrier to entry is ginormous! Think mom and dad can start their own competing internet service? Yes, companies made the initial investment, but that doesn't mean they should exploit us once they've got control of the market.


by crazymoloch on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 12:27:02 PM EST

Re: Puhlease...... (none / 0)

Nice comment.


by Matt Stoller on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:51:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net N (none / 0)

He's setting up a dichotomy with the "low-bandwidth IP services" and "high-bandwidth services." That's the whole point; the telcos want to control the high-bandwidth services like video, etc, strangling the future of the Internet and any small media entity that wants to deliver high-bandwidth services. He's explicitly equating high-bandwidth Internet with private Intranet networks, and calling it a "specialized service.

Reminds me of "The Underground." For all you youngsters, The Underground was what FM radio was called back in the sixties. I used to be able to turn on my radio and hear Jimi playing the "Star Bangled Banner" or Country Joe and the Fish sing" 1,2,3,what are we fighting for?"

Nowadays, music that isn't mainstream canned commercial crap is either called alternative or worse garage bands. Furthermore after FM was commercialized who ever heard of any band that didn't get airtime on the radio?

Well ...... the music didn't die. WWW.betterPropaganda and similar sites will even give you music for free. What a concept.

BriVT, I fear that you are correct. I would go a step further and say that the telcos want to control content and well as make money. They are working to shut us up just like they shut up the music from the sixties.


Dare to be free.
by misscee on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 01:16:02 PM EST

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net N (none / 0)

BriVT, I fear that you are correct. I would go a step further and say that the telcos want to control content and well as make money.

precisely so, they don't like a world where all websites are equal and have to compete on the basis of interesting content, or in the case of buisness, good products and services.

They are working to shut us up just like they shut up the music from the sixties

where I live the only is sixties classic shlock.


by Alice Marshall on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:51:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net N (none / 0)

I don't think we should be smearing McCurry here.  You all are acting like this is partisan issue, which I don't think it actually is or should be.  I, for one, don't see any reason to hand the internet over to the Government for regulation YET.  However, if power is abused by some than maybe down the road the issue should be re-examined.

Still, you all have a right to your opinion but I think we should direct this towards more constructive discussion and not blast one of our own.


by diamond on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 01:27:49 PM EST

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net N (none / 0)

Who is smearing him? Better yet, how is anyone making this out to be a partisan issue. Notice the Gun Owners of American and other conservative groups also support our position. Blast one of our own? Stop worshipping the ground every Democratic celebrity walks! Sheesh...


by crazymoloch on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 02:20:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net N (none / 0)

I'm not saying we should worship him.  But saying he's either "lying" or "clueless" feels a little like smearing too me.


by BringtheFight on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 03:56:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Truth is a Bitch (2.00 / 1)

Do you honestly still wonder why Democrats have a hard time calling Bush a liar or a dumbass? It because of people like you, except with more conservative streak. Don't be mean you say. Don't smear someone you say. Can't handle the truth? Maybe its time you educated yourself on the issue on your own time instead of playing fact (ala the Stoller variety) against spin (McCurry) and giving readers on MyDD the impression that McCurry had something valuable to add?

If you are going to post a diary like this one again, please be sure to add some original commentary on why you find valuable/agree with someone's writing. Don't cry about someone being treated unfairly and feel that it is sufficient reason to present that someone's talking points. Don't pull the MSM routine of equating garbage with fact. Do the work. Read about it. Then post about it.

p.s: Did it ever occur to you that "clueless" or "liar" might be applicable descriptions of McCurry's positions? Stoller provided enough background to back up either assertion.  


by crazymoloch on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:32:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Truth is a Bitch (none / 0)

Jeez, all I wanted to do was facilitate some debate on an important issue.  Just because I want to hear both sides of the argument on this...I don't think that makes me solely responsible for Dems who are afraid to call out Bush for being a dumbass(something that each day is becoming less and less a matter of opinion, and more a FACT!)  

This is a very confusing issue that I'm only just beginning to learn the intricacies of.  I wish I was knowledgeable enough to provide an in-depth original commentary along with my post, but I felt that would be presumptious of me to pretend to be an expert.  I apologize if you didn't like the diary because of that.  

I'm trying to learn as much as I can, as fast as I can, and engage myself in the conversation as much as possible.  I thought this diary would be a good opportunity for me to learn more, and for the MyDD community to discuss both sides of the issue, the side that most everyone here agrees with, as well as the views of a prominent Democrat on the other side of the issue.

I think it's a debate worth having, I'm profoundly sorry if you don't like the way I presented it.


by BringtheFight on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 05:25:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Truth is a Bitch (none / 0)

I think it's a debate worth having, I'm profoundly sorry if you don't like the way I presented it.

That is inconsistent with this statement.

I wish I was knowledgeable enough to provide an in-depth original commentary along with my post, but I felt that would be presumptious of me to pretend to be an expert.

This is NOT a debate worth having.  There is no debate.  


by Matt Stoller on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 09:33:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net N (none / 0)

But this is not an issue where it's either "government regulation" or "citizen control" as it was with the FEC battle -- it's "government regulation" or "corporate control", and protecting citizens against the clenched fist of the invisible hand is exactly why progressives generally seek governmental regulation in economic matters.


by Adam B on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:03:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Toll roads (3.00 / 1)

Could you imagine if the entire interstate highway system were run by private enterpises?

America would turn into Albania overnight.


by jcjcjc on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 03:16:45 PM EST

Re: Toll roads (none / 0)

I think you make a good point.  However, isn't there an obvious counter point to that Analogy?  I mean couldn't you easily argue that if we had NO toll roads or H.O.V. lanes our highways would be lower-quality, slower, and more congested for everyone?


by BringtheFight on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 03:54:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

who makes the rules (none / 0)

should it be the telcos? or the people via our government?


by Alice Marshall on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 04:54:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In fairness (none / 0)

Bandwidth, while similar to highway systems, has one gigantic advantage: adding more bandwidth does not require encroachments upon property and people.

If I want to add more throughput to a public highway system, I'd have to add new lanes, exits, etc. that would all encroach up real properties.

If I convert a copper wire system over to fiber optics, I gain a ridiculous amount more throughput without consuming more real property to handle it.

The relative maintanence cost is significantly lower, too.

A run of telephone wiring may last 30-100 years without mainanence depending on conditions.  

A stretch of highway might last 5-10 years before it would become unbearable.


by jcjcjc on Wed Apr 26, 2006 at 11:18:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net N (3.00 / 1)

I think you make a good point.  However, isn't there an obvious counter point to that Analogy?  I mean couldn't you easily argue that if we had NO toll roads or H.O.V. lanes our highways would be lower-quality, slower, and more congested for everyone?

No, offense, man, but this is incoherent.  The internet is already a toll road.  You pay to get on.  The question is whether the people who own the toll road get to charge different people different amounts of money depending on how much they like them.

The infrastructure guys built out the pipes with a great deal of government help, using a standard developed at government expense, and they have a near monopoly on the end users of the pipes.  They already charge for use, based on bandwidth.


by jsw on Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 10:53:51 PM EST

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net N (none / 0)

I think this idea that progressives (and I am one) have on this issue is incredibly naive - the idea that the Government is going to protect the Internet?  Or speech?  Or your civil rights for that matter?  I mean  - do you people read the news?  


by jesusquintana on Tue May 02, 2006 at 10:30:39 AM EST

Re: Mike McCurry Responds to Matt Stoller on Net N (none / 0)

The internet has enjoyed incredible freedom up to this point.  I don't understand why we would need incredibly complicated legislation to continue that freedom.

If Congress can't write legislation that removes budget earmarks, or effectively distributes medicine to Seniors or raises the CAFE standards 4mpg ...why can they suddenly craft legislation that would perfectly regulate something as complicated as the internet?

   


"There is nothing wrong with America that cannot be fixed by what is right about America"
by wesley on Tue May 02, 2006 at 10:47:17 AM EST

Re: Mike McCurry Responds (none / 0)

Net neutrality is just another internet scare. No one is violating this supposedly sacred principle, and no ISP would. It would just be bad business and the free market would sort them out quickly.


by pkp646 on Thu May 04, 2006 at 10:06:39 AM EST

Re: Mike McCurry Responds (none / 0)

Oh, and one other thing on this issue. Why should the goverment be brought in to this? Honestly, what good can come from that? Everyone has seen the effects of government regulation and in general they are not pretty.


by pkp646 on Thu May 04, 2006 at 10:08:04 AM EST


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