Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside

by zcflint05, Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:15:44 PM EST

I have to say that I'm extremely proud of Hillary today---she made the correct choice on the FISA vote. Here's her statement (and an exerpt) from her Senate office:

http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statement s/details.cfm?id=300338&&

While this legislation does strengthen oversight of the administration's surveillance activities over previous drafts, in many respects, the oversight in the bill continues to come up short. For instance, while the bill nominally calls for increased oversight by the FISA Court, its ability to serve as a meaningful check on the President's power is debatable. The clearest example of this is the limited power given to the FISA Court to review the government's targeting and minimization procedures.

I've been reading the general reaction on this from the "Netroots" community, and unfortunatley, it seems that something that Sricki predicted about what would happen with Hillary's no vote came true:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/7/3/18483 1/7398#readmore

What's worse, although Hillary issued a statement in February [many thanks to atd for finding it] in opposition to the FISA Amendment, she may now feel pressured to support the decisions of the nominee. I'd love to see her take a stand, show leadership, and join the effort to filibuster the bill; I fear, however, that she is locked in by her own powerful endorsement. She has promised to support Obama, and I believe she will - in every way. That means she'll probably take the stance that he took, she'll support his position. I half wonder whether she can keep fighting for us if she's busy fighting for Obama.

Indeed, the general consensus across DailyKos and many progressive blogs seems to be that Hillary is once again "triangulating" and now trying to "point out the differences between herself and Senator Obama", in an effort to continue fighting the primary wars. However, I think this an extremely ill-minded position for many of us to take. I think, also, unfortunately, this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't position for Hillary; but I would like to see the netroots give her a little damn credit for taking a principled stand on this bill and supporting progressive ideals in her return to the Senate since the primary.

I really don't think this is re-fighting the primary wars. From what I remember, many Obama supporters at Kos and here wanted Hillary to return to the Senate and become a "liberal lionness". Well, here she is. And there's her vote, and you still want to rip her head off for it? Come on now, let's get real.

I understand, at least politically, why Senator Obama had to vote the way he did. I'm at least OK with it, even though I have some misgivings, I see the political issues involved with a general election campaign, and why he needed to give it the go ahead. In addition, since Hillary's not even running anymore, I don't understand why her vote would nessesairly undermine Senator Obama's, especially since this is an issue that for the most part, outside of the netroots, is something the general public won't understand, AND Hillary is the one taking the risky position here.

So I want to THANK Hillary Clinton, along with the other no votes on FISA, for standing with progressives. And I also want her to know that I have her back, and I hope many of us do. The stunning backlash from the netroots in regards to her "no" vote and her standing with progressives blows my mind.

Join me in thanking Senator Clinton here:
http://clinton.senate.gov/contact/




Tags: FISA, Progressives, Hillary Clinton (all tags)

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Thank you (2.00 / 19)

Hillary!


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:16:02 PM EST

Re: Thank you (2.00 / 4)

How about a donate link? :O)


Welcome to a landslide WITH white working class, latinos, women and holding on sweeties!!!
by spacemanspiff on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:27:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (none / 0)

Hey, it's right up front on her site, if ya want it :)

http://hillaryclinton.com/


by daria g on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 10:37:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you (2.00 / 7)

And thank you for posting this accurate diary.

I am proud of her.

People overlook the fact that FISA implicates the Fourth and the First Amendment.  They are our two most important freedoms.  Political speech and the ability to oppose the administration in power are what democracy is all about.


by strongerthandirt on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:46:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And thank you, zcflint... (2.00 / 5)

For posting this. Hillary showed real courage today & did the right thing. I'm glad we're all thanking her for sticking up for our Constitutional rights! :-)


We shall overcome!
by atdleft on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How did she show courage? (none / 0)

She won't have to face any consequences on way or the other based on her vote today.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:02:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How did she show courage? (2.00 / 5)

You mean like facing no consequence for her AUMF vote?


Purity! Or else!
by ChitownDenny on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:21:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How did she show courage? (none / 0)

The war is still going on and she never admitted that vote was a mistake.  Kerry & Edwards did and they made it to the big game.  

If Obama wins in November FISA will get fixed and it her FISA vote won't matter.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:41:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

her vote for the AUMF was NOT (none / 0)

a mistake.  She said why she voted the way she did and you choose to think she was lying about why.  Actually her vote was to slow down bush if posssible, because he did not need the AUMF to go to war in Iraq and we all knew it.

Edwards apology came AFTER he was VP candidate, so I am not sure what you are talking about there.  His statement to the senate was very hawkish and his apology was meaningless since his vote really was to look tough on security so he could run for Pres in 2004.
Kerry never apologised for his vote...so again, don't know what you are talking about there.  In FACT, during the 2004 GE hge said he would vote the same way again.


by Teacher1956 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: How did she show courage? (none / 0)

What are you talking about?  I hope the people that voted for that FISA bill do face consequences!


by jelyfish on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:18:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary Haters just are not (none / 0)

rational.  Please do not expect them to be, you will be so disapointed.


by Teacher1956 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:38:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 2)

Why are we thanking anyone today.

Our senate failed us, I appreciate Dodd and Feingold having the dignity to show what real patriotism is.

Honestly I would be happy if Feingold and Dodd sat out the rest of the year.

We just lost the 4th Amendment today, and America is weaker for it,

why there is anyone to thank is beyond me.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:21:12 PM EST

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 2)

not surprised I got no response.

Democrats, the party that love to capitulate, then congratulate themselves on an utter loss.

I won't thank Dodd or Feingold, but I commend them and the handful of other Senators.

If we had any leadership worth a dime the capitulation, surrender, compromise, whatever you want to call it never would have happened.

Democrats don't deserve the elections we will win next year, because when we win we will continue to bow our heads because we will have a 2010 election to win.

I thought the Netroots actually had some pull, its obvious our worthless primaries tore that power down.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:48:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

I'd rather have an undeserved Democrat appointing the next Attorney General and FEMA director than an incompetent Republican.  

If you are just venting then that is understandable, but life is  series of compromises and Obama chose to accept one here.  He is still the best person for the job.  When that changes then we can lament our fate.  Until then, however, we should remember that competent government is what is at stake in November.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:59:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 1)

I am venting, I 100% beleive in Obama as a politician and public servant.

I am attacking our bullshit party for this sadness.

My point is there is NO ONE to thank today, not even  Feingold.

Why because they lost.

I just don't get why anyone deserves any thanks, we didn't lose the 4th amendment because only 28 Senators voted for what was right, Those senators didnot succeed in stopping this.

For me this has nothing to do with Obama, Clinton or anyone else, it's our party, it is a sickness.

The GOP will always beat us, we have almost no unity before or after our primaries.

The only good we can hope for is this historic day is a WAKEUP call to all netroots activists.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama the great constitutional compromiser (none / 0)

www.counterpunch.com/ramakrishnan/070920 08.html

And where is the Angel of Change at this crucial hour? Busy playing for the Hispanic vote. Barack Obama has already shot his bolt, saying he will vote for the current FISA bill, and hinting darkly that unless the vote goes through, there will be loopholes in the law leaving the country open to unnamed threats. A laughable notion, wouldn' you say? Didn't  this whole business start because the Government cared nothing for the law? As Bob Ostertag wrote in the Huffington Post,

"Imagine how inspired you would have been if, instead of turning and running, Obama was interrupting his campaign schedule to fly to Washington and lead the filibuster against the FISA legislation. Take the money donate it instead to Russ Feingold, the senator who is leading the struggle. Then tell everyone you know to do the same."

But don't be too surprised at our Barack (see The Banality of Hype), who like Yossarian, is happy to win the election, no matter if it means losing the country in the process.

read more....


by suzieg on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:21:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama the great constitutional compromiser (2.00 / 1)

No thanks.  You seem like you want Obama to lose and that makes you the opposition.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:59:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama the great constitutional compromiser (none / 0)

This is where I am torn.  If Obama wins I'm afraid that it will set back the goal of Universal Healthcare (substantially). I think that is bigger than one presidency.


by jelyfish on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:24:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama the great constitutional compromiser (none / 0)

"If Obama wins I'm afraid that it will set back the goal of Universal Healthcare (substantially)."

No you're not, and that is completely fake concern above.  

Do you think that McCain will advance the cause?  Of course you don't.


Obama/Adam West or Bruce Campbell or Lucy Lawless '08
by Purple with Green Stipes and Pink Polka Dots Dem on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:53:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama FAILED you. (1.27 / 11)

Has the so-called constitutional law professor shown some spine and been a leader this would not have had happened.

Obama FAILED you. Lay the blame where it belongs.


by LatinoVoter on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:28:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The power of Christ compels you (2.00 / 5)

The power of Christ compels you.

The power of Christ compels you.

Am I the only one who an Exorcist flashback after reading that comment?  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:51:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm having them too. (2.00 / 1)

I keep seeing Barack's head spinning and him throwing up on the Constitution.


by LatinoVoter on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:50:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

huh? (none / 0)

what you said is clear as mud.
I believe the diarist is thanking Hillary for voting the right way on this.  Why should we not?
by Teacher1956 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 7)

"Indeed, the general consensus across DailyKos and many progressive blogs seems to be that Hillary is once again "triangulating" and now trying to "point out the differences between herself and Senator Obama", in an effort to continue fighting the primary wars"

Haven't seen much of that here.

That seems more like something CERTIAN Kossacks would come up with, yes.

There are partisans still fighting the primary wars over there, JUST are there are those still fighgint it over here.

My take is, Senator Clinton was freed up to vote her natural tendency, which is solidly progressive.

Without Mark Penn coaching her HOW it would play in Penn, she is, and has always been, a liberal and voted today as a liberal should.

Unfortunately, and I will have a lousy 48 hours chewing this bitter pill, Senator Obama had no such freedom today.

His vote sucks, I hate it, and I am not wavering one micron from doing anything I can to get him and NOT John McCain in the Whitehouse in the fall.


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:23:32 PM EST

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (1.93 / 16)

The truth is the dkos crowd hates HRC and Bill, period.  What ever she does they go nuts and go after her.  IF HRC was the candidate and voted the way BO did Markos and his gang of nut jobs would be going on for months.  But instead of calling BO on his vote they go after HRC for doing the right thing.

These people are nuts, times 10.

david


by giusd on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:29:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh, they ARE calling (2.00 / 2)

BO out. Diaries like "I will vote for BO but grudgingly" dominate the rec list. Lots of gnashing of teeth and keening.


by Neef on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:39:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, they ARE calling (2.00 / 1)

"But instead of calling BO on his vote they go after HRC for doing the right thing."

Yeah, I just went to Kos, and I don't find any thing like that.

A bunch of people PISSED at Obama, but, as you say, grudingly pledging their continued support.


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:44:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Really? (2.00 / 4)

Try this diary:
Link
by Radiowalla on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really? (none / 0)

Radio,

Someone ALREADY linked that one, we all read it.

See below.


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:16:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh, they ARE calling (2.00 / 4)

I went over there, too. There were some sensible people, but there were also a bunch who said that Hillary just voted that way to make Obama look bad. It would be funny if it wasn't so horridly sad.
I do think there are some with buyer's remorse, though.
by Marjoriest on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:34:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's the bell curve (none / 0)

On a site that large, you're going to find every opinion. It would be unrealistic to expect ZERO Clinton Conspiracy diaries.

What is shocking is the appearance of pro-Clinton diaries.


by Neef on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:09:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I have never seen or heard such scary (2.00 / 7)

blind hatred like the hatred on kos for the Clintons, anywhere but on right wing blogs and right wing radio.

There are always a few extremists on every blog. I get that.  And there are trolls and I get that too.  But the level of temper tantrum hatred, of whining, foot stomping nastiness is right up their with the close minded, sanctimonious right wing.

How the hell can anyone call themselves progressive, let alone liberal and be filled with that level of mean spirited hatred?  It is scary to think this is what the left is becoming.


by Jjc2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I have never seen or heard such scary (2.00 / 4)

You don't spend a lot of time on NoQuarter,  or Texas Darlin's vanity blog, I guess....

The anti-obama venom over there is so thick, you could cut it with a knife.

Nicely racist as well.  

Takes all kinds, but plenty of Ugly to go around.


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:58:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 3)

Nuts?  How about hypocritical lemmings and just plain hate-mongering fools?   Where would they be without the Clintons to ground them in their vitriol and venom?  Without them they and Obama wouldn't have an identity--period!


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:18:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 1)

...which is why I continue my strike against Daily Kos. Their hatred of her is almost pathological; I suspect their working out their mommy issues with Clinton.


by jerseygirl on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:53:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 0)

Oh, you are soooo right, jersygirl!


by trixta on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:18:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I never thought it was possible (none / 0)

for people to be kookier than the freepers, but the regulars at the big cheeto have proven me wrong.  Unfortunately lots of them post here too.


by Teacher1956 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:44:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 4)

I am proud of her too. but feel sad. Because now I know she is not going to be the veep. And she must know it. I don't think obama would be able to tolerate her voting different than him on this.


by linfar on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:37:15 PM EST

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 5)

Well, I tend to disagree, I think he would respect her vote on this, and not hold it against her.

I continue to believe the biggest drawback to Hillary as VP os three alpha dogs in a room?

IF anyone does any dog training, you know two alphas can get along just fine.

Put 3 in a room, and you will have a fight in seconds.

I DO like someome's suggestion of making Bill UN Chief? Mostly, cause it would send A-holes like Bolton into a seisure.


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 5)

And i agree my guess is BO respects HRC vote on this and pols can agree to disagree.  It is not personal and it personal conviction.

david


by giusd on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:09:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

They both didn't like the bill, and Obama has motives to accept the "compromise" that didn't influence Clinton.


by Falsehood on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:57:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

How can he have respect for her vote when he has (none / 0)

no respect for his 20,000 supporters who begged him not to vote for this atrocity? The man is so pedantic and self-centered, it's nauseating!


by suzieg on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:26:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (1.00 / 5)

I fully support HRC and hope she is not the VP!  She  will be blamed for all of BO's mistakes should he steal the presidency.


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:19:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (1.50 / 4)

But, you want McCain, cause he is such a moderate, right?

Sheesh!


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 1)

I bet she thanks her lucky stars she isn't blamed for all of your mistakes.


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

Where is this outrage you speak of? All I see here and on kos are a couple of diaries just like this one. I'm sure there are random comments here and there that knock Hillary for making Obama look bad, but I can't find them.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:38:11 PM EST

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 4)

http://dailykos.com/story/2008/7/9/16484 5/8072/235/548955

Read the comments, that's just one example.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:44:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

Hmmm...

I just DID read the comments, and it's a lot of back and forth, no concensus?

I see a lot of folks defending Hillary, defending Obama....some people criticising each of them

Mothing like David claimed?

Sure, on the whole, it is probably more pro-Obama, but I have seen a LOT worse there, and I DON'T see Obama getting a totally free ride there.


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

There are more than 1000 comments in that thread.  Is there a consensus among those 1000 comments attacking Hillary?  Well, no, there isn't.  But there are literally hundreds of comments among them attacking Hillary.  It's completely absurd.  Dozens of people posting on the site attacking Hillary for taking the exact position that they have demanded she take for months.  And also attacking the diarist, who works for Hillary, for having the nerve to share her position online (again, even though her position is the exact position they have wanted to take).

Unbelievable.


Jim Martin for Senate!
by markjay on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:06:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 3)

With much respect, I think many people were tiffed because it was one of her paid internet advisors who posted her statement.  Many thought it was an attempt to stick the knife in and twist.


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:51:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 1)

Why shouldn't her votes be made public?  Obama still does not have the nomination, after all!


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:21:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

"Obama still does not have the nomination, after all!"

Hope springs eternal, in the PUMA soul.


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:24:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (1.50 / 2)

Yeah, Baby!


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:27:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 2)

I can't believe Trixta is finally getting attention.

If you want entertainment, go to the beginning of this "proud to spit shine McCain's boots" troll comment history.

It came around and would say the dumbest stuff, indicating it is 12 or 98 years old.

Everyone ignored it, except for me.

It's so nice to see the troll bloom.

Check out this brilliant comment:
http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/5/26/1 24948/932/220#220


by DemsLandslide2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:30:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 3)

HOLY CRAP-OLA!!!

Talk about cognitive dissonance?

McCain is a moderate?

Tritxa, you need some serious time away from
NoQuarter.


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:38:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If it is, I'm glad the person did it! They deserve (none / 0)

it!


by suzieg on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:27:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 2)

I read some of those comments before I made my post. There are far more that are negative towards Obama as there are towards Clinton, as there should be in a diary about this vote. I see very few that actually criticize Clinton for 'showing him up' as is implied in this diary. I stand by my original comment.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 06:52:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But the ones (2.00 / 4)

directed at Hillary and/or Bill are filled with the right wing hatred I have only seen on right wing blogs.....it is frightening when people call themselves "liberal or progressive" and stoop to that level.
http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/7/ 9/164845/8072/600#c600
That's just one example.

Read any of that posters ugly hate and tell me it is just debating.


by Jjc2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:05:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But the ones (1.00 / 1)

You had to go to comment #600 to find one that supported this claim? That shows this claim is really weak.

Another thing you said in the comment I'm replying to here is that you have only seen that kind of hatred on right-wing blogs. That is contradictory. If you are complaining about comments on dkos then obviously those kinds of comments aren't limited to right-wing blogs.

I notice you didn't reply to the poster who asked you about the hatred shown on Larry Johnson's hate site and similar sites.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:16:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Oh please (2.00 / 3)

I picked a random comment of a poster who has posted a ton of them.

Please I get it. You LOVE Kos.....fine. I really don't give a cr*p.  I find it disconcerting that a so called liberal site became so fixated on the hate of a longtime democrat who DID many good things for the country, for the party, for liberal causes.  You want to defend that, more power to you.


by Jjc2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:55:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please (2.00 / 1)

Oh please, you don't get it. I couldn't care less about dkos. I don't have an account there and the visit I made today was because I followed a link from this diary.

I was not defending dkos. I was disputing this claim by the diarist "Indeed, the general consensus across DailyKos and many progressive blogs seems to be that Hillary is once again "triangulating" and now trying to "point out the differences between herself and Senator Obama", in an effort to continue fighting the primary wars."

I still haven't seen any proof that this claim is true.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:12:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Oh please (2.00 / 3)

Quit painting with such a broad brush.  Are there annoying, die-hard Obama supporters who see nothing wrong with his stances, YES!  Are there annoying, die-hard Clinton supporters who see nothing wrong with her stances? YES!

My guess is you are so focused on calling out these type of Obama supporters you fail to give relevance to any type of even-keeled Obama supporter.  It as if you search for these types so you can gripe and cause commotion.

If you're so worried about Kos, join over there and do the very thing you accuse Obama of not doing...stand up for your principles!


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:12:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I already belong... (2.00 / 1)

I was a member there for several years but I left when it was clear that the bullying tactics of some were not going to stop.  Sorry, I was tired of the immature personal attacks on a dem candidates looks, laugh, and ankles.  I was tired of the echo chamber coming from some newbies who either were just getting involved in the political process or were former republicans/libertarians.


by Jjc2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 10:12:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I already belong... (1.66 / 3)

Well you made a choice a to leave, why do you continually bring it up?  Move on already.


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 11:14:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Continuallly bring it up???? (none / 0)

Why do you exaggerate?


by Jjc2008 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:36:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 5)

Obama made Obama look bad.

Sheesh, we're going to get another "blame anyone but the president" presidency.

Cripes.


by Juno on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:24:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

This comment doesn't really make any sense in the context of this sub-thread.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:26:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 1)

It makes perfect sense!  It means that BO should be held accountable for his votes and positions no matter how Sen Clinton or any other Senator happens to vote.


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:29:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 2)

McCain must be hard up for bloggers.  Is this the best he has to offer?


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:13:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

I responded directly to a post about people over at kos blaming the Clintons for making Obama look bad on this vote.

K?

I highly recommend reading Glenn Greenwald's piece at Salon or RealClearPolitics.


by Juno on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:30:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

You responded to a comment that said I didn't observe any comments stating that Clinton tried to make Obama look bad. This discussion isn't about Obama, it is about what people are saying about Hillary and Barack.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:42:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

I owe you an apology. I did misread the context of your post.


by Juno on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:47:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

Having said this, which you deserve, though, I have seen a lot of posts here saying Clinton did this to make Obama look bad.


by Juno on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:48:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (2.00 / 2)

Thank you for that acknowledgement.

I have seem perhaps a handful of posts making that claim. I have seen far more from Hillary supporters claiming that Obama supporters will be saying that.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:14:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hillary votes NO on FISA---Statement inside (none / 0)

Define "a lot".  Then post them please.


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:14:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Of course it makes sense (2.00 / 2)

The echo chamber is now saying it was NOT Obama's fault.  He HAD to do it.  The echo chamber is now trashing Senator Clinton for doing the right thing.  If that makes sense to you, then you must understand the Bush administration.


by Jjc2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:57:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course it makes sense (2.00 / 1)

My point is that I don't see any evidence of this 'echo chamber'.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Of course it makes sense (2.00 / 2)

Ignore...


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:15:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

then you need glasses (none / 0)


by Teacher1956 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:46:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

LOL (1.11 / 9)

From a comment on another blog:

Obama has changed position so many times in the last week he should be the nominee for the kamasutra party!!!


by strongerthandirt on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:01:17 PM EST

Re: LOL (none / 0)

Which blog was it?


by DemsLandslide2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:07:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (2.00 / 1)

Yeah... reinforcing right-wing frames about the Democratic nominee is hi-larious.

Do you have anything to say that isn't trashing our nominee?


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:12:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (2.00 / 2)

Yep, Glenn Greenwald is just FULL of right-wing talking points.

Btw, this person doesn't say which blog, but you all assume...

And to think, just this morning, someone here was insisting that criticism of Obama is tolerated and respected here and is NOT always met with accusations of being a troll or some other form of insult.

And yet, look at every response to this person's post so far.

Anyway, here's Greenwald:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2 008/07/09/fisa/


by Juno on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:22:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (2.00 / 2)

I don't care if it's Che friggin' Guevara... the "flip flop" meme with regard to Obama is a right-wing talking point, plain and simple.  It reinforces a characterization point the Right is trying to use to form Obama's persona in the eyes of the public.  By using it, you are helping John McCain.

There are ways to criticize Obama's positions without using this talking point.  I would advise you, and Glenn Greenwald, to do so.

Are you going to continue to help John McCain, or are you going to help us elect Barack Obama?


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:48:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow.... (2.00 / 2)

how frustrating to think the left wing uses right wing talking points about a democrat.  Has that happened before ever?????

Oh wait, go to the dailyObama, fka dkos and you can find every right wing meme from the 90s throughout this past primary.

Excuse me for somehow thinking there is some merit to "what goes around, comes around..."


by Jjc2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:59:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow.... (none / 0)

Yup.  That is going to get more Democrats elected.

Also, every right-wing meme?  Find me one single comment on dKos accusing Hillary Clinton of killing Vince Foster (one of those right-wing memes from the '90s that you claim are welcome over there) that isn't HRed to hell.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I remember well how (none / 0)

Hillary was trashed in the 90s as being too assertive and ambitious...(how dare that woman think she had something to contribute).  I remember the right wing trash machine insisting she "could not be trusted".  I remember the right wing machine talking about her looks, her laugh.....and her daring to say she was not "going to sit home and bake cookies."

I read pretty much the same thing on dkos over and over and over...


by Jjc2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 10:08:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wow.... (1.00 / 1)

Bravo, Jjc2008! Obamantan hypocrisy is so thick you can slice it with a knife!


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:39:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (2.00 / 1)

"Are you going to continue to help John McCain, or are you going to help us elect Barack Obama?"

Is that your way of saying "either your with us or your against us"? Where do I here that all the time? The Obama Presidency is really going to be Bush's third term. Oh yeah! Four more years of the same damn crap from a different face.


"Do you know the difference between a War Story and a Fairy Tale?"
by RedstateLib on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:34:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

No, that's my way of saying that there are ways of criticizing Obama that don't help John McCain, and there are those that do.  Calling him a "flip flopper" or accusing him (falsely) of changing positions on a number of issues plays into their characterization of Obama, and consequently helps John McCain.

Criticize him for his stance on FISA all you want, but make sure you're using arguments from the left rather than from the Right.

The Obama Presidency is really going to be Bush's third term. Oh yeah! Four more years of the same damn crap from a different face.

That's nice.  Remind yourself that you said that when President McCain appoints the justice that overturns Roe.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:38:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

Man you people get a hold of one op-ed piece that diminishes Obama and your like a Pit Bull on a T-Bone.


Toot, thank you for raising such a terrific person...You done good and we will have you in our hearts.
by hootie4170 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:16:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (2.00 / 2)

But "reinforcing right-wing" memes on Sen Clinton as a candidate was okay with y'all--right?


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:31:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

Take your time.

Find ONE right wing talking point I made about Senator Clinton.

You know where to find me.


On Nov 4th, we elected "the smart guy" and the world celebrated!
by WashStateBlue on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:35:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

Trixta never supported Clinton

http://www.mydd.com/comments/2008/5/26/1 24948/932/220#220


by DemsLandslide2008 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:38:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

Pray tell, my Dear.  In what way did I not support her?  This should be interesting.


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:44:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

Looking at the comment to which the above poster links, it would appear that you're supporting John McCain.  Thus, you are taking an active stand against women's rights, against ending the war, and against working people.

Would Hillary Clinton take such a stand?


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:01:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

My principled stance is country over party!

If that means voting for anyone but Obama and his kind of politics--which we've already seen in King George--then so be it.  I bow to no one!


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

So Obama represents Bush's kind of politics somehow, but John McCain, who agrees with George Bush on everything he's not to Bush's right on, doesn't?

The cognitive dissonance you must be experiencing is astounding.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:51:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

Hillary wouldn't (remember she wants to end the war), but apparently Obama has taken such positions these past couple of weeks.  Who knows what he'll stand for by November.


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:48:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

He has?  He's said he doesn't want to end the war, that he's opposed to women's rights, and that he wants the working class to get more of the same?

Then you should have no problem linking me to clear statements of such.  Let's see it.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:50:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

Mistersite, you're taking my comments very personally--which is strange because I haven't directed any of them directly at you.  Your pugnacious attitude is rather silly.


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 10:12:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (2.00 / 2)

Asking you to provide evidence for your assertions is "taking your comments very personally"?  That's odd, because I was under the impression that such requests are a standard part of deliberative argument.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 10:19:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (2.00 / 1)

I offer the same challenge as above: find me one instance in which I do so.

Oh, right, I see now - the little "y'all" there.  That means that you have automatic license to engage in freeform generalizations, no matter how inaccurate, about all Obama supporters, without providing sufficient evidence.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:50:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

Silly!


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:49:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (2.00 / 1)

Funny that you still have yet to present sufficient evidence for your claim.

Let's see it.  Present evidence that "right-wing memes" were okay with "all" Obama supporters.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:53:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (none / 0)

I've heard enough abuse hurled at HRC and her supporters by the Obama camp on the "internets" and other media that I can make a general reference of "Y'ALL" to such vitriolic voices.

Again, you're trying to make my comments personal, but they haven't been directed at you specifically since I can't even remember reading any of your posts.

Looks like you want to duke it out to let off steam though-- probably for how Obama voted on FISA.  Your anger should be directed at him and to those who rationalize his misjudgment -- not to those who question his judgment.

Peace!


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 10:25:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (2.00 / 1)

Also, since you're asking perhaps this guardian.co.uk article will enlighten you a bit as to what went down in the primaries--and it isn't revisionist history.

"Destroying Hillary Clinton:  How a bitter primary campaign saw the right's discredited smears gleefully revived and reused by the left"

by Melissa McEwan and Maureen McCluskey.
    * guardian.co.uk,
    * Tues July 1, 2008 (Part I)
    * Wed July 2, 2008 (Part II)


by trixta on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 10:42:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: LOL (2.00 / 1)

More Republican talkingpoints by Strongerthandirt.


by Politicalslave on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:16:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In the alternate universe where Hillary won... (none / 0)

she voted FOR the FISA bill.


by Beren on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 07:13:11 PM EST

So pathetic (2.00 / 1)

that you have to reach into alternate universes to attack her because in the one we live in Barack voted to trash the constitution and Hillary did the right thing.

Sad. So very, sad.


by LatinoVoter on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 08:30:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So pathetic (none / 0)

Just pointing out that it doesn't matter what Hillary did since she LOST. Carrying a torch for her failed candidacy is the true meaning of "pathetic."


by Beren on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 09:47:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So pathetic (2.00 / 1)

Who's carrying a torch for her lost candidacy?


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 10:06:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So pathetic (none / 0)

Anyone who still feels the need to sell her like yesterday's bread.


by Beren on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 11:46:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So pathetic (2.00 / 1)

Who's selling her?

Ted Kennedy and John Kerry used to occasionally post diaries at the big orange monster whose name I dare not write.  Are they yesterday's bread?  Like it or not, it's a divided party and those of us who admire Hillary will continue to promote her.


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:09:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Whatever (none / 0)

 I could see a diary about all of the Democrats who voted right on FISA, but singling Hillary out as the heroine is beating a dead horse.


by Beren on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:48:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not at all (2.00 / 2)

She's no longer a candidate.  The diarist got behind Obama in May.  But after she was trashed TRASHED by the netroots for being an evil DINO triangulating Karl Rove, she deserves a little praise.

I can't speak for zcflint's motives, but the only pleasure I have gotten from having the 4th amendment removed from the constitution today was knowing that all the netroots activists who trashed Hillary for being a so-called "triangulator" and hailed Obama as the messiah are today turned red in the face and stomped on the floor when they heard that Hillary, not Obama, stood up for the Constitution.  Seeing some of the Hillary-haters heap scorn upon this diary makes me smile. :)


Another Clintonista against John McCain
by psychodrew on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:51:41 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not at all (none / 0)

Your very choice of words -- vintage Ob